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WEBVTT 1 00:00:34.875 --> 00:00:37.075 Greetings, welcome to Cyber Focus, your source 2 00:00:37.075 --> 00:00:38.675 for international business information. 3 00:00:39.295 --> 00:00:40.555 I'm your host, Ryan Craven, 4 00:00:40.555 --> 00:00:42.435 and our guest today is Professor Andrew Lippy. 5 00:00:43.275 --> 00:00:44.935 Andrew Libby is the Assistant Director 6 00:00:45.075 --> 00:00:46.815 of the Human Biology Program at iu. 7 00:00:47.165 --> 00:00:49.735 This program is an interdisciplinary major in the College 8 00:00:49.735 --> 00:00:50.735 of Arts and Sciences 9 00:00:50.885 --> 00:00:52.215 that explores the complex human 10 00:00:52.215 --> 00:00:53.615 dimensions of scientific inquiry. 11 00:00:54.435 --> 00:00:56.935 His current teaching interests revolve around poverty, 12 00:00:57.125 --> 00:00:59.215 globalization, and the role 13 00:00:59.235 --> 00:01:01.615 of global financial institutions like the World Bank 14 00:01:01.615 --> 00:01:02.975 International Monetary Fund, 15 00:01:02.995 --> 00:01:05.335 and the World Trade Organization in International 16 00:01:05.335 --> 00:01:06.815 Development and Emerging Markets. 17 00:01:07.545 --> 00:01:10.895 Prior to this position in the HUBI, Andrew served 18 00:01:10.895 --> 00:01:12.255 as the community Engagement Coordinator 19 00:01:12.255 --> 00:01:13.695 for the IU service learning program, 20 00:01:14.155 --> 00:01:15.255 and he has a strong commitment 21 00:01:15.455 --> 00:01:18.335 to interdisciplinary experiential teaching and learning. 22 00:01:18.875 --> 00:01:20.175 Andrew, thanks for being here. 23 00:01:20.475 --> 00:01:21.735 So you're getting ready to teach the 24 00:01:21.965 --> 00:01:23.695 intensive Freshman seminar course. 25 00:01:24.115 --> 00:01:27.095 You know, food for Thought Food Policy from local to global. 26 00:01:27.555 --> 00:01:31.535 Uh, kinda what is that intensive seminar style, 27 00:01:31.635 --> 00:01:33.255 and then tell us a little bit about that, that program. 28 00:01:34.435 --> 00:01:37.295 Uh, yeah. The Intensive Freshman Seminar program is a 29 00:01:37.295 --> 00:01:41.335 really, I think, unique, I think neat program here at IU 30 00:01:41.785 --> 00:01:46.415 where incoming freshmen, um, will come in 31 00:01:46.415 --> 00:01:47.735 and take a seminar class. 32 00:01:47.845 --> 00:01:50.135 It's usually about two and a half to three weeks, 33 00:01:50.795 --> 00:01:52.975 and you can take it on a variety of topics. 34 00:01:53.225 --> 00:01:54.815 There are like maybe 20 35 00:01:55.475 --> 00:01:59.895 or 20 plus intensive freshman seminars offered from 36 00:02:00.285 --> 00:02:03.495 disciplines all across the U University. 37 00:02:03.955 --> 00:02:07.335 Um, and the topics range wildly. 38 00:02:08.235 --> 00:02:10.175 My class is called Food for Thought, 39 00:02:10.275 --> 00:02:13.575 and I'm part of the Human Biology program in the College 40 00:02:13.575 --> 00:02:14.695 of Arts and Sciences. 41 00:02:15.235 --> 00:02:18.015 My class is on the industrialization of food 42 00:02:18.435 --> 00:02:20.455 and its effects locally and globally. 43 00:02:21.085 --> 00:02:23.775 Awesome. Um, you know, what, 44 00:02:23.805 --> 00:02:25.535 what makes this topic so interesting to you? 45 00:02:27.355 --> 00:02:29.325 Yeah, that's a good question. 46 00:02:29.985 --> 00:02:33.685 Um, yeah, I think came by this in a winding way. 47 00:02:33.885 --> 00:02:36.005 I was mainly interested in globalization. 48 00:02:36.605 --> 00:02:37.965 I was interested in the role 49 00:02:38.065 --> 00:02:39.965 of the International Monetary Fund 50 00:02:40.785 --> 00:02:44.605 and the structural adjustment programs that they broker 51 00:02:44.605 --> 00:02:45.885 with developing nations. 52 00:02:46.465 --> 00:02:49.565 And I just was looking at the flows of capital 53 00:02:49.985 --> 00:02:53.005 and it seemed to me that they were replicating the, the time 54 00:02:53.005 --> 00:02:56.845 of colonialism where developing nations were paying huge 55 00:02:56.845 --> 00:03:00.765 amounts of debt to their, uh, creditors, 56 00:03:01.055 --> 00:03:03.605 which were mainly developed nations. 57 00:03:04.105 --> 00:03:06.245 And I started to see how 58 00:03:06.245 --> 00:03:09.325 that had a really negative effect on farmers, 59 00:03:09.875 --> 00:03:11.765 subsistence farmers, especially in some 60 00:03:11.765 --> 00:03:13.885 of the poorest nations on the earth. 61 00:03:14.225 --> 00:03:16.365 And these policies seemed, 62 00:03:17.265 --> 00:03:19.285 if not designed intentionally, 63 00:03:19.765 --> 00:03:22.765 although designed intentionally, um, to kind 64 00:03:22.765 --> 00:03:25.045 of squeeze these economies 65 00:03:25.265 --> 00:03:27.565 and it depleted their infrastructure 66 00:03:28.545 --> 00:03:30.325 and made it really difficult to be a, 67 00:03:30.405 --> 00:03:32.245 a farmer in these nations. 68 00:03:32.945 --> 00:03:37.715 And, um, that might not matter so much in the United States. 69 00:03:37.995 --> 00:03:39.915 'cause like, who's a farmer? We have like, I don't know, 70 00:03:39.915 --> 00:03:43.075 2 million farmers, 2% of the population. 71 00:03:43.675 --> 00:03:45.435 I think maybe my math isn't so good, 72 00:03:45.435 --> 00:03:48.435 but I think it's 2% of the population are farmers now. 73 00:03:48.695 --> 00:03:51.115 But in developing nations, you have somewhat times upwards 74 00:03:51.115 --> 00:03:52.395 of 60, 70% 75 00:03:52.855 --> 00:03:55.555 of the population engaged in engaged subsistence 76 00:03:55.555 --> 00:03:58.715 agriculture, and a lot of times these are women, 77 00:03:58.815 --> 00:04:01.315 so these are issues that really affect food 78 00:04:01.615 --> 00:04:03.315 and globalization really affect people in 79 00:04:03.315 --> 00:04:04.715 poverty and women in poverty. 80 00:04:04.855 --> 00:04:07.595 And so I thought that was sort of an interesting topic 81 00:04:07.855 --> 00:04:09.195 to start to think about. 82 00:04:10.425 --> 00:04:11.425 Yeah. 83 00:04:11.735 --> 00:04:14.375 Were there any, uh, standouts that kind 84 00:04:14.455 --> 00:04:17.135 of just really kind of blew your reminder, just was kind 85 00:04:17.135 --> 00:04:20.015 of a wow factor, um, when you initially started kind 86 00:04:20.015 --> 00:04:22.975 of taking this approach with really the the food lens? 87 00:04:24.245 --> 00:04:25.455 Yeah. There were two books. 88 00:04:25.515 --> 00:04:27.935 And are you, are you suggest asking about books 89 00:04:28.035 --> 00:04:30.415 or other texts or experiences I've had? 90 00:04:31.405 --> 00:04:34.135 Yeah, really just whatever, you know, kind 91 00:04:34.135 --> 00:04:35.855 of something you came across and it was just really kinda 92 00:04:35.855 --> 00:04:37.295 eye-opening and um, 93 00:04:37.885 --> 00:04:40.215 Yeah, like Piqued that interest even more. 94 00:04:40.845 --> 00:04:42.895 Yeah. Two, two books really. 95 00:04:43.475 --> 00:04:47.015 Uh, one, I don't know if you know Joseph Steitz, 96 00:04:47.125 --> 00:04:48.255 he's an economist. 97 00:04:48.475 --> 00:04:51.135 He was the chairman of Clinton's Council 98 00:04:51.295 --> 00:04:52.575 of Economic Advisors. 99 00:04:54.165 --> 00:04:57.135 He's no chump. He's got a Nobel Prize in economics. 100 00:04:57.595 --> 00:05:00.095 Um, he teaches at Princeton 101 00:05:00.875 --> 00:05:04.095 and I really, he wrote a book called Globalization 102 00:05:04.115 --> 00:05:05.295 and it's Discontent, 103 00:05:05.315 --> 00:05:08.495 and it was published in like 2001, maybe 104 00:05:09.125 --> 00:05:10.215 something like that. 105 00:05:11.315 --> 00:05:13.815 And he really 106 00:05:14.805 --> 00:05:17.655 explained in an accessible way for someone like me 107 00:05:17.655 --> 00:05:21.375 who was new to the topic of 21st century globalization, um, 108 00:05:22.505 --> 00:05:25.715 what structural adjustment programs were, how they operated 109 00:05:27.255 --> 00:05:28.775 historically, what they emerged from, 110 00:05:29.025 --> 00:05:31.455 which is something called the Washington Consensus, 111 00:05:31.455 --> 00:05:34.255 which was something developed by Ronald Reagan 112 00:05:34.355 --> 00:05:36.575 and Mark Thatcher in the eighties. 113 00:05:37.435 --> 00:05:41.115 Um, and it was part of a general global push 114 00:05:41.255 --> 00:05:42.435 to liberalize trade 115 00:05:43.575 --> 00:05:48.135 and to encourage globalization, I think enactment 116 00:05:48.295 --> 00:05:51.975 of nafta, the WTO in the nineties sort of followed 117 00:05:52.845 --> 00:05:53.895 logically from this, 118 00:05:53.915 --> 00:05:55.895 but there was sort of a, like a little bit of a dark side 119 00:05:55.915 --> 00:05:58.085 to the story of like happy globalization. 120 00:05:58.505 --> 00:06:00.125 And so Steve pointed that out, 121 00:06:00.505 --> 00:06:02.725 but I thought he did it in a kind of even handed way. 122 00:06:02.865 --> 00:06:06.085 He didn't, um, he talked about some of the triumphs 123 00:06:06.085 --> 00:06:08.045 of globalization as well as some of the 124 00:06:08.645 --> 00:06:10.045 negative consequences of it. 125 00:06:10.345 --> 00:06:11.885 And he used a really interesting phrase. 126 00:06:11.945 --> 00:06:13.645 He said, he is like globalization. 127 00:06:14.025 --> 00:06:15.925 He is like, it's a neutral term. 128 00:06:16.195 --> 00:06:18.125 He's like, it's not a good term or a bad term. 129 00:06:18.225 --> 00:06:19.965 You can have good globalization 130 00:06:20.105 --> 00:06:21.965 and you can have bad globalization. 131 00:06:22.205 --> 00:06:23.205 I thought that was interesting. 132 00:06:23.705 --> 00:06:28.245 And I think the food system is an example of 133 00:06:28.825 --> 00:06:30.925 bad globalization, um, 134 00:06:30.925 --> 00:06:34.005 because it's driven by perverse economic incentives. 135 00:06:34.155 --> 00:06:37.605 It's, it's sort of a, it's a, it's a market system 136 00:06:37.745 --> 00:06:41.685 that's dominated by subsidies from western nations. 137 00:06:41.705 --> 00:06:43.125 And I usually think about the United States, 138 00:06:43.225 --> 00:06:45.845 but you could also think about the European Union as well. 139 00:06:45.865 --> 00:06:47.445 And these are the most developed 140 00:06:48.405 --> 00:06:49.925 economic regions of the globe. 141 00:06:50.555 --> 00:06:52.165 They're the ones that subsidize the 142 00:06:52.325 --> 00:06:53.805 agricultural most heavily. 143 00:06:54.745 --> 00:06:57.685 And this really distorts the market in a lot of ways, 144 00:06:57.755 --> 00:07:00.765 both in terms of what ends up on our plate here in 145 00:07:00.995 --> 00:07:04.165 Bloomington, Indiana, as well as the opportunity 146 00:07:04.225 --> 00:07:06.565 for people in developing nations in emerging markets 147 00:07:06.745 --> 00:07:10.965 to have, uh, you know, a successful secure 148 00:07:12.075 --> 00:07:14.485 food system that's sort of localized 149 00:07:15.065 --> 00:07:18.165 and not so vulnerable to kind 150 00:07:18.165 --> 00:07:20.845 of exogenous shocks on a globalized supply chain. 151 00:07:21.865 --> 00:07:25.085 And so, uh, that was one book. So Steve was amazing. 152 00:07:25.385 --> 00:07:27.405 Uh, he's just amazing and he's an economist. 153 00:07:27.405 --> 00:07:29.285 He could have written a book filled with formulas 154 00:07:29.285 --> 00:07:31.125 that nobody could understand, 155 00:07:31.225 --> 00:07:33.445 but he didn't, he wrote a book that like, I mean, 156 00:07:33.445 --> 00:07:35.565 I think he really wanted people to see this. 157 00:07:36.545 --> 00:07:40.125 Uh, and then Michael Pollan, who's a very popular author, 158 00:07:40.825 --> 00:07:43.205 uh, journalism professor 159 00:07:44.025 --> 00:07:47.405 and food writer at Berkeley, at uc, Berkeley, um, 160 00:07:48.065 --> 00:07:50.405 who actually came and spoke at IU a few years ago, 161 00:07:50.425 --> 00:07:51.765 it interesting talk. 162 00:07:52.065 --> 00:07:54.485 Um, he wrote a book called The Omnivores Dilemma, 163 00:07:54.775 --> 00:07:58.725 which I read, and the premise of his book is so interesting. 164 00:07:58.785 --> 00:08:01.285 He basically says like, gee, I wonder what's in my food. 165 00:08:01.945 --> 00:08:04.725 And he is like, and he looked at the ingredients, he's, 166 00:08:05.125 --> 00:08:07.165 I can't actually tell what's in my food. 167 00:08:07.705 --> 00:08:09.365 Who knows. So he did like an investigation 168 00:08:09.365 --> 00:08:12.045 to figure out like kind of what's in his McDonald's 169 00:08:12.585 --> 00:08:13.965 Big Mac and Coke. 170 00:08:14.265 --> 00:08:16.805 And it turns out that a lot of this, a lot of the answer to 171 00:08:16.805 --> 00:08:21.245 that was most of the ingredients are based are, are 172 00:08:21.915 --> 00:08:23.485 corn and soy based. 173 00:08:23.705 --> 00:08:27.645 And so he kinda, his book helped explain to me something 174 00:08:27.645 --> 00:08:28.805 that was right in front of my face 175 00:08:28.805 --> 00:08:30.405 that didn't make any sense to me, which is 176 00:08:30.705 --> 00:08:32.565 who in the world is eating all this corn? 177 00:08:33.175 --> 00:08:34.465 Because I live in Indiana 178 00:08:35.325 --> 00:08:37.825 and I see corn every time I leave Bloomington 179 00:08:37.885 --> 00:08:39.785 and go like 30 miles in any direction. 180 00:08:39.895 --> 00:08:41.705 There's nothing but corn in soy fields. 181 00:08:42.345 --> 00:08:44.625 I only eat a little bit of corn. So who's eating it all? 182 00:08:44.805 --> 00:08:47.625 So pollen explain how the system works, 183 00:08:47.805 --> 00:08:49.705 how corn is just a commodity crop 184 00:08:56.375 --> 00:08:58.535 formulations that you see on the back 185 00:08:58.535 --> 00:09:01.095 of all the processed food that you like, dextrose 186 00:09:01.395 --> 00:09:05.535 and this stuff and sobe and xantham gum 187 00:09:05.555 --> 00:09:06.895 and all that, that's all corn. 188 00:09:07.115 --> 00:09:09.135 And so pollen kind of puts it all together 189 00:09:09.675 --> 00:09:10.895 on the domestic front. 190 00:09:11.035 --> 00:09:13.015 So all of a sudden I started to see pollen 191 00:09:13.015 --> 00:09:14.815 and GL kind of coming together. 192 00:09:15.715 --> 00:09:17.295 Uh, and that was really interesting. 193 00:09:17.915 --> 00:09:19.415 And then I worked at the food bank, 194 00:09:19.875 --> 00:09:22.215 and so I saw people who didn't have enough food to eat 195 00:09:22.215 --> 00:09:24.255 or who had plenty of food to eat, 196 00:09:24.255 --> 00:09:25.495 but it was all terrible for them. 197 00:09:26.125 --> 00:09:28.665 And I started to think about poor people and their diet 198 00:09:29.045 --> 00:09:32.705 and the obesity rates as it affects people in poverty. 199 00:09:33.485 --> 00:09:35.985 And started to think about how our food system is a huge 200 00:09:36.245 --> 00:09:37.265 set of trade-offs. 201 00:09:37.965 --> 00:09:41.465 And so that kind of intersection between food, globalization 202 00:09:41.485 --> 00:09:45.025 and poverty emerged from that kind of nexus 203 00:09:45.025 --> 00:09:46.345 of texts and experience. 204 00:09:47.175 --> 00:09:50.545 Well, and, and you mentioned it too, um, that 205 00:09:52.045 --> 00:09:54.825 so much of, you know, the populations in some of these areas 206 00:09:54.925 --> 00:09:57.185 and markets, um, is 207 00:09:57.325 --> 00:09:59.545 and you know, the agricultural side and the food side. 208 00:09:59.965 --> 00:10:02.625 And so we look at it in those terms too. 209 00:10:03.095 --> 00:10:05.825 This conversation is such a huge economic impact 210 00:10:06.645 --> 00:10:07.905 for those regions and areas. 211 00:10:08.685 --> 00:10:11.385 You know, kind getting back to kind of what's grown and, 212 00:10:11.385 --> 00:10:14.145 and why, and you know, it's, so much of it is determined 213 00:10:14.145 --> 00:10:17.505 by factors that aren't necessarily the local environment. 214 00:10:17.925 --> 00:10:20.305 You know, is this the right food 215 00:10:20.365 --> 00:10:21.905 for really everybody to be eating? 216 00:10:22.205 --> 00:10:24.665 And you know, kind of beyond nutrition, uh, you know, 217 00:10:24.665 --> 00:10:27.825 are there any anything that any, you know, key policies 218 00:10:28.045 --> 00:10:29.345 or, you know, any kind of part of that process 219 00:10:29.345 --> 00:10:31.305 that really stand out, that kind of showcase that for you? 220 00:10:32.215 --> 00:10:35.265 Yeah, I mean, to me the prime mover in the whole 221 00:10:35.265 --> 00:10:36.745 system is subsidies. 222 00:10:36.925 --> 00:10:38.625 So much goes back to subsidies. 223 00:10:38.625 --> 00:10:41.385 We subsidize our agribusinesses to the tune 224 00:10:41.405 --> 00:10:43.585 of $20 billion a year. 225 00:10:44.725 --> 00:10:49.385 Um, and what that gets us, what we're paying 226 00:10:49.565 --> 00:10:54.145 for there is the overproduction of just a small select set 227 00:10:54.145 --> 00:10:58.785 of crops like corn, soy, wheat, rice and cotton. 228 00:10:59.685 --> 00:11:02.385 And so, um, we get, 229 00:11:02.925 --> 00:11:04.825 we get the processed food 230 00:11:05.995 --> 00:11:09.925 that comes from those basic ingredients. 231 00:11:10.105 --> 00:11:13.605 But if we subsidize something different, 232 00:11:14.425 --> 00:11:19.285 if we subsidize tomatoes, we'd have a lot of tomatoes. 233 00:11:19.385 --> 00:11:21.725 If we subsidize the things that were healthy 234 00:11:22.065 --> 00:11:25.485 and are good for us, then we would have those 235 00:11:26.025 --> 00:11:29.565 things more available to us at a cheaper price. 236 00:11:29.945 --> 00:11:32.445 And the stuff that, the stuff that's bad for us 237 00:11:33.175 --> 00:11:37.035 would be more expensive, but you don't see it. 238 00:11:37.035 --> 00:11:41.635 That's why they can add like 79 ounces of coke to your cup 239 00:11:41.735 --> 00:11:43.075 for like an extra penny 240 00:11:44.215 --> 00:11:47.385 because the raw ingredient, you know, 241 00:11:47.385 --> 00:11:51.505 high fructose corn syrup is nothing, nothing on the dollar, 242 00:11:51.775 --> 00:11:53.605 pennies on the dollar dollar. 243 00:11:53.605 --> 00:11:56.165 And so it would be great if we reoriented our 244 00:11:56.165 --> 00:11:57.445 federal subsidy system. 245 00:11:58.005 --> 00:12:01.705 A lot of these questions are questions of poverty, you know, 246 00:12:02.225 --> 00:12:04.225 I mean, people eat what they can afford. 247 00:12:04.525 --> 00:12:06.985 So, but that's also, that's an appealing part 248 00:12:06.985 --> 00:12:09.185 of the food system to me too, is like, this is a, 249 00:12:09.185 --> 00:12:12.025 this is an area of poverty that I think we, if we, 250 00:12:12.405 --> 00:12:13.945 if we thought about our priorities 251 00:12:13.965 --> 00:12:16.425 and we prioritize public health, um, 252 00:12:16.745 --> 00:12:18.545 I think we could have an effect on the system. 253 00:12:18.775 --> 00:12:21.625 This is not like an intractable impossible problem. 254 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:24.495 This is the problem with good, 255 00:12:24.885 --> 00:12:28.975 good potential solutions all oriented around trying 256 00:12:28.975 --> 00:12:32.455 to localize our food system just a little bit more. 257 00:12:32.835 --> 00:12:36.375 And we don't all have to like survive on berries and twigs, 258 00:12:37.395 --> 00:12:41.175 but we've got a system that's really, really industrialized. 259 00:12:42.325 --> 00:12:44.585 Um, and we could probably do a little bit 260 00:12:45.165 --> 00:12:48.865 of shifting back towards the way the food system used to be. 261 00:12:50.165 --> 00:12:52.945 But one of the, one of the obstacles to that is 262 00:12:52.945 --> 00:12:54.665 that we pay not very much 263 00:12:54.685 --> 00:12:58.945 for our food now we pay just like 12% of our annual income 264 00:12:59.005 --> 00:13:00.185 as a household for food. 265 00:13:00.185 --> 00:13:03.185 Whereas 50, 75 years ago we paid like a third of our income. 266 00:13:04.245 --> 00:13:08.905 So, you know, we get what we pay for nowadays, we get, uh, 267 00:13:08.965 --> 00:13:10.465 excess of unhealthy abundance. 268 00:13:11.315 --> 00:13:13.605 Yeah. Does um, you know, we kind of talked, been circling 269 00:13:13.605 --> 00:13:15.005 around it, uh, a little bit, 270 00:13:15.105 --> 00:13:18.605 but, um, you're starting to see a little bit more of a, 271 00:13:18.685 --> 00:13:21.485 a trend towards kinda locally sourced food, um, 272 00:13:21.745 --> 00:13:24.085 and eating, you know, what your local farmers 273 00:13:24.265 --> 00:13:26.205 and your environment can kind of produce 274 00:13:26.265 --> 00:13:28.365 and your own regions, you know, is 275 00:13:28.365 --> 00:13:31.205 that kind of the right direction? Um, that's 276 00:13:31.205 --> 00:13:32.205 Amazing. That's 277 00:13:32.205 --> 00:13:33.645 what we should, that'd be great. 278 00:13:33.995 --> 00:13:36.405 Kind of circling back over to the, to the policy piece 279 00:13:36.405 --> 00:13:39.525 of it a little bit, um, you know, kind of what gets made 280 00:13:39.525 --> 00:13:41.125 and, and you've spoken to it a little bit already, 281 00:13:41.145 --> 00:13:43.645 but you know, you know, kind 282 00:13:43.645 --> 00:13:46.205 of the international trade factor of kind 283 00:13:46.325 --> 00:13:48.885 of the food policy in, in kind of its influence. 284 00:13:49.665 --> 00:13:52.685 Do you think that, uh, you think that the, you know, 285 00:13:53.065 --> 00:13:54.965 the kind of the current COVID, you know, 286 00:13:55.845 --> 00:13:58.845 situation kind showcases that, that value that, you know, 287 00:13:58.945 --> 00:14:01.085 the benefits of that locally sourced food? 288 00:14:02.955 --> 00:14:04.755 I don't, I don't know. 289 00:14:05.355 --> 00:14:09.035 I mean, I've been kind of looking at newspaper articles 290 00:14:09.095 --> 00:14:11.155 or just whatever's on my newsfeed 291 00:14:11.255 --> 00:14:13.875 and like trying to see if there seem like there are stories 292 00:14:13.875 --> 00:14:15.035 about food shortages. 293 00:14:15.695 --> 00:14:18.035 And I have not really seen anything like that 294 00:14:18.995 --> 00:14:20.115 anywhere across the globe. 295 00:14:21.175 --> 00:14:25.955 So I don't, I have not seen the co COVID has not disrupted 296 00:14:26.745 --> 00:14:29.115 markets in any way that I've noticed. 297 00:14:29.335 --> 00:14:31.555 But, um, I think 298 00:14:34.715 --> 00:14:36.845 what can happen is countries 299 00:14:36.845 --> 00:14:38.805 that don't have a strong agricultural sector, 300 00:14:38.805 --> 00:14:41.245 that they rely too heavily on imports 301 00:14:41.245 --> 00:14:44.245 because their own sector has been own agriculture, 302 00:14:44.285 --> 00:14:47.965 agricultural sector has been made uncompetitive for, 303 00:14:48.905 --> 00:14:52.085 you know, urban biased policies 304 00:14:52.305 --> 00:14:54.165 and commodity dumping and things like that. 305 00:14:54.595 --> 00:14:57.685 Then if there is a problem in the supply chain, like, 306 00:14:58.125 --> 00:14:59.125 I guess not COVID, 307 00:14:59.305 --> 00:15:02.965 but I'm thinking more like climate related problems, 308 00:15:03.765 --> 00:15:07.315 droughts, fires, floods. 309 00:15:08.155 --> 00:15:10.075 I know it was a really interest, really interesting story 310 00:15:10.075 --> 00:15:11.595 from a while ago from the Wall Street Journal. 311 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:12.755 It's like 2010. 312 00:15:13.005 --> 00:15:17.805 There was like a heat wave across the 313 00:15:17.805 --> 00:15:20.685 wheat belt in Russia, so whatever part 314 00:15:20.685 --> 00:15:23.565 of Russia it is some part to the west 315 00:15:23.855 --> 00:15:24.965 where they grow lots of wheat. 316 00:15:25.145 --> 00:15:27.245 So Russia just kept all their wheat to themselves, 317 00:15:27.265 --> 00:15:29.525 so they didn't have as much to export. 318 00:15:30.265 --> 00:15:33.605 So countries that were dependent on Russian 319 00:15:34.695 --> 00:15:36.525 wheat exports all 320 00:15:36.525 --> 00:15:39.245 of a sudden found themselves very vulnerable, 321 00:15:40.225 --> 00:15:41.805 uh, to shortages. 322 00:15:41.805 --> 00:15:45.045 And in that case you did see kind of price spikes 323 00:15:45.825 --> 00:15:47.785 and riots 324 00:15:47.805 --> 00:15:49.385 and food riots, uh, 325 00:15:49.625 --> 00:15:53.185 I think in places pretty far away from Russia, 326 00:15:53.465 --> 00:15:57.585 I mean down in, in, in, I think in Africa, uh, north Africa. 327 00:15:58.005 --> 00:16:02.425 So, um, I think in terms of policy, it's probably good 328 00:16:03.325 --> 00:16:07.875 as international development policy for us 329 00:16:08.055 --> 00:16:11.595 to help developing nations build the infrastructure 330 00:16:12.025 --> 00:16:16.515 that they need to have a strong agricultural sector. 331 00:16:17.335 --> 00:16:19.515 Um, so, 332 00:16:19.975 --> 00:16:23.315 but we don't do that as far as I know, like going back to 333 00:16:23.315 --> 00:16:25.555 that idea of structural adjustment programs, 334 00:16:26.155 --> 00:16:29.475 I mean basically what we do is we tell developing nations 335 00:16:29.475 --> 00:16:33.195 that are in debt that they should cut their budgets for 336 00:16:33.945 --> 00:16:36.475 agriculture and for health 337 00:16:37.135 --> 00:16:39.875 and for education so they can pay down their debt load. 338 00:16:40.335 --> 00:16:43.795 So that's just sacrificing the future for the past. 339 00:16:44.195 --> 00:16:46.195 I mean, that's just driving them into a cycle 340 00:16:46.335 --> 00:16:47.955 of further impoverishment. 341 00:16:48.285 --> 00:16:49.875 Every once in a while we'll cut 'em a little break 342 00:16:49.875 --> 00:16:51.155 and restructure the debt load, 343 00:16:51.155 --> 00:16:53.155 but we never let 'em get out from under our thumb. 344 00:16:53.975 --> 00:16:57.755 Um, and so as a result of that, that just weakens 345 00:16:58.765 --> 00:16:59.925 agricultural sectors. 346 00:16:59.925 --> 00:17:01.645 These developing nations, they don't have funds 347 00:17:01.945 --> 00:17:05.285 for irrigation system and for seeds, they don't get credit. 348 00:17:06.265 --> 00:17:07.285 And if they don't have credit, 349 00:17:07.315 --> 00:17:09.045 they can't buy the materials they need 350 00:17:09.045 --> 00:17:10.245 for the next growing season. 351 00:17:10.745 --> 00:17:13.885 And then they become even more dependent on imports from the 352 00:17:13.885 --> 00:17:16.565 west, heavily subsidized imports from the west. 353 00:17:16.825 --> 00:17:18.325 So then they get in a really bad cycle. 354 00:17:18.385 --> 00:17:21.725 And then where all those farmers go, well then 355 00:17:21.725 --> 00:17:24.245 that's a big demographic move that's sort of, they move 356 00:17:24.245 --> 00:17:26.125 to the cities, they look for opportunities, 357 00:17:26.145 --> 00:17:27.525 but it's not good urbanization. 358 00:17:27.525 --> 00:17:29.605 It's not like urbanization from the 19th century 359 00:17:29.705 --> 00:17:32.845 and the United States or in England where people move 360 00:17:32.845 --> 00:17:34.045 to the cities because there were jobs. 361 00:17:34.415 --> 00:17:35.525 These people are moving to the cities 362 00:17:35.525 --> 00:17:37.765 and they're just living in slums, these 363 00:17:38.325 --> 00:17:41.165 informal housing settlements with poor sanitation. 364 00:17:41.825 --> 00:17:44.005 And so that's bad for their health. 365 00:17:44.765 --> 00:17:48.785 So now you have bad health on both sides of the globe driven 366 00:17:49.385 --> 00:17:53.375 by the same economic incentive, farm subsidies. 367 00:17:54.305 --> 00:17:57.885 So, uh, and do I, should I go on? 368 00:17:57.885 --> 00:18:00.045 It's even worse, man, what we do, 369 00:18:00.105 --> 00:18:02.525 if we don't dump all the excess food on them, we give it 370 00:18:02.525 --> 00:18:04.605 to 'em as food aid, which is so cynical. 371 00:18:04.605 --> 00:18:06.765 That's just a payoff to the, to the, 372 00:18:07.505 --> 00:18:12.205 to the shipping industry, uh, uh, 373 00:18:12.505 --> 00:18:14.525 and all the, all the everything. 374 00:18:14.525 --> 00:18:16.325 We don't even, you know, all the stuff it has 375 00:18:16.325 --> 00:18:19.125 to be shipped from the United States on us flag vessels. 376 00:18:19.665 --> 00:18:21.805 So, and then how can they compete? 377 00:18:21.805 --> 00:18:24.885 How can a country like Ethiopia compete against 378 00:18:25.315 --> 00:18:26.565 food that's free? 379 00:18:27.325 --> 00:18:29.045 I mean, so that's putting their farmers even 380 00:18:29.045 --> 00:18:30.085 further out of business. 381 00:18:30.225 --> 00:18:32.125 So they're getting food aid delivered 382 00:18:32.125 --> 00:18:34.285 to them while they have warehouses full 383 00:18:34.285 --> 00:18:37.685 of their own rotting domestic food products. 384 00:18:38.255 --> 00:18:40.605 How'd you feel about that if you're an Ethiopian farmer? 385 00:18:40.665 --> 00:18:43.525 So these two journalists, these guys from New York Times, 386 00:18:44.465 --> 00:18:46.885 tho and kil, no, the Wall Street Journal, 387 00:18:46.915 --> 00:18:50.405 they were Wall Street Journal journalists, Roger Thoreau 388 00:18:50.425 --> 00:18:52.805 and something, Kilman wrote a book called Enough 389 00:18:52.855 --> 00:18:55.325 where they talked about this from 2013. 390 00:18:55.325 --> 00:18:59.005 They talked about how we're shipping food aid to Ethiopia 391 00:18:59.655 --> 00:19:01.445 while they have plenty of food, 392 00:19:02.555 --> 00:19:04.335 but why would there people buy their food? 393 00:19:05.115 --> 00:19:07.495 Why not just dig a bag of free American grain? 394 00:19:07.915 --> 00:19:09.575 So the whole system is perverse 395 00:19:09.875 --> 00:19:13.535 and the people who are winning are the big agri businesses. 396 00:19:13.635 --> 00:19:16.095 If you wanna really understand the system, you just have 397 00:19:16.095 --> 00:19:19.295 to follow the profits, and that's where the profits are. 398 00:19:19.485 --> 00:19:22.615 They're in the companies like Archer Daniels, Midland 399 00:19:23.235 --> 00:19:24.415 and Cargill 400 00:19:24.955 --> 00:19:26.175 and Smithfield 401 00:19:26.525 --> 00:19:30.295 that control the whole supply chain from the farm 402 00:19:30.635 --> 00:19:32.455 to the distribution center. 403 00:19:33.155 --> 00:19:36.295 And, uh, they, and they're, they're the, they're the winners 404 00:19:36.415 --> 00:19:41.135 'cause they add, they add value along every step 405 00:19:41.515 --> 00:19:44.415 of this increasingly complex globalized supply chain 406 00:19:44.645 --> 00:19:46.455 that works for them, but not so much 407 00:19:46.455 --> 00:19:47.815 for everybody else. I think 408 00:19:48.395 --> 00:19:50.055 That's it for this edition of Cyber Focus. 409 00:19:50.275 --> 00:19:51.855 If you have any comments or suggestions 410 00:19:51.855 --> 00:19:53.335 for future topics, please let us know. 411 00:19:53.355 --> 00:19:55.975 At cyber@indiana.edu I.